Wordpress & Full Site Editing
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Phelan: We are live, I believe, yep, it says we are live, and you know what that means, it is time for Geek Speak once again. And this week we are talking about WordPress and the new updates that are going to be causing allowing you to do full site edits. We'll dive into a little bit of what that means and why it's coming at this time.
And what does that mean for average people using WordPress? My name is Phil Lewis with original with Seymour digital media. And
Greg: And I'm Greg McKinnon with Original72 Creative.
You were gonna say
Phelan: was like reading
that. I was like,
I don't know why I did that.
But yeah,
Greg: that's,
are
you
You could, work with me.
Phelan: Yeah.
Greg: Yeah today's, topic
is,
is we may expand into more about, about WordPress,
WordPress
And its
direction but it's a topic that came out of the fact that WordPress is moving towards, the block builder and with the block builder that they've created for editing content, they're moving towards also using those same blocks to actually build every aspect of your site, meaning the headers and footers
and, and
anything else to give you what they're calling that full site editing experience.
So that's what we're going to talk all
about today.
Phelan: Yeah, exactly. And I think that's it's been an outgrowth of
WordPress
in the last few years when they introduced the block builder to try and give. Move away from a more like coded experience, like where you have like actually hire a developer and, and also not having like the Divi experience where it's yeah, you can drag and drop whatever you want, but it's yeah, you're going to have a
Greg: a million divs and the site's gonna
Phelan: slow as all hell.
Greg: Yeah.
And,
Phelan: And,
so it's
like Find that, balance
Greg: between two, which I think they've been trying to work out.
Yeah, for sure. I'm not
even going Divi.
I
feel like everybody's known my, my position on Divi for a very long time. When they first introduced Gutenberg, which is the block based editor, really that was, like you were saying, their way to get with the times and, become more of.
a page builder,
like Divvy was, like Elementor is, and Beaver Builder and all of those page building experiences. And it's. gotten to a point where it is, it's very powerful. I would say it's just as powerful as many of those block based, page editors that you would, that you could install, but it's all native in WordPress now.
And there's no need to install those if you, if some people are really comfortable with those.
But I say one of
benefits of using the native.
block
Builder of WordPress is that many times elements that you put on a page have additional code with it. And typically the experience of a page builder, you have all of these things that you can do and everything gets loaded on the page for the, sake of you might have used it in that page.
But
if
didn't, all of this additional code is, being loaded and the block based builder native and block plugins. If you're using that block on the page,
the
necessary code Or CSS or JavaScript or anything that
Uses is used for that block to function would only get loaded. So all of these other aspects of
um,
what's in the page builder.
It doesn't load that entire thing. I think they're starting to try to move away from that and do that more. But the block based builders is, basically the only assets that you need will load
on a page, making your site speed a lot faster.
Phelan: Yeah when I was just talking about that, it made me think of like you have a continuum and on one side is customization on the other side of site performance
And
A lot of the customizable ones like your Divis and Elementors, they give up a lot of performance and so you're in order to have like full customization, whereas like the block builder just strikes the right balance, almost leaning more towards the
Greg: performance,
Phelan: Because
it runs so minimal that you actually can have pretty, pretty fast speeds and still feel like you've get as much customization as you possibly want. And and it's,
I
Greg: I think yeah, it's just one of those situations that block builder
Phelan: has
done a pretty good job for doing what it needs to do. What we needed it to do for something that like I, and I was never a big fan of you get to drag and make it pixel perfect because I'd always seem stupid to me because you have a million different sizes of screens.
So like being customized for each one of those is just.
It,
just seems like a futile effort. Like you're just going to smudge it and get it mostly looking good. And then you're always going to have some outlier screen sizes, like Pip's
screen's way bigger than mine. And so she'll look at a webpage and it will be like, I've got all this extra white space and I'm like, yeah, but it's just like you and 10 other people that are going to have that.
Whereas like most people are going to have an average experience and you're
you you have to find that happy medium with like web design that not everyone's going to have that. That same size screen as you.
Greg: Yeah.
Yeah. If you're, if you've got like a 55 or 60 inch TV hooked up to your computer,
Phelan: Mm
Greg: Could,
you could have a, a page with an image and, a nice paragraph of text and on that it's going to be like one line of text next to this small image, whereas on a computer or a, tablet, everything's going to be like you use all of the real estate almost that's, there.
Yeah. And you won't have the white space. I think people understand that now. Le less so in the past. I, remember back in my early days of really having to be like, okay, we're designing this site for this size, right? Which means if people have smaller monitors. They're not going to see if we're building it wider, they're not going to see that extra, or if they have a much wider screen, they're only going to see the size that we're building for,
And really having to explain that
to to customers.
So they understood why, why why
Phelan: Yeah. white space for, for him? Or why is there no white space for me? I don't it.
Greg: it.
Phelan: Yeah, exactly. And that's, I think they, yeah, things have loosened up a little bit. I think in the web design market where
Greg: people are,
Phelan: understand that we're looking at this it's not going to be exact everywhere. And I'll also still use Ms pixels if you can,
because Ms are much nicer for
Being responsive as a design versus a pixel.
And but yeah, I'd say that with, yeah, with the block builders as well, the, as they're developing the more full site systems, I think that's also, one other thing we
talked about was like that the, troubles that,
WordPress
is trying to make, to work out with having an old system that they can't entirely get rid of. Because it's just some people just, they're not going to update. And so you're trying to that happy medium between, I need to update things and not break existing systems.
And they're like having to interface with it in a way that,
Like the, core of
WordPress stays pretty consistent and updates.
Obviously
there's new PHP that gets updated and stuff like that. And
Greg: know, whatever
Phelan: issues get need to get resolved for security, but like still have it fundamentally still working as the the same that they had, what, 20 years
ago. And so that, and that's a tall order for how fast the internet moves is to be able to have this interface that you can interact with.
And then. it takes a step back and then still seems seamless on the back end as far as like an average person using and still make it feel like user friendly
Greg: which is like pretty tall order if you ask me like that's something like
not something I'm
going to be jumping at like reinventing that to make it like make this user friendly.
Yeah. Yeah. No I think they have done an excellent job in transitioning to newer things without drastically breaking any, old things. I don't know behind the scenes how many hoops they're really trying
jump through to
To keep things working
or have things get upgraded to more modern code and, things like that.
But I can imagine it's quite challenging.
Phelan: Yeah
Greg: just
Phelan: to dive a little bit into it, because I do know a little bit, because they were big pioneers of what's called a headless CMS, so they, what they did is they decoupled, like, when you go into WP admin, that's all just mostly PHP, and the actual thing you interact with is React, which is really, cutting edge JavaScript library from Facebook. And and it's really does a good job interfacing and then you do all your stuff. And then when you hit that save button, it translates everything did into PHP on the backend. And so that's what they did is they have a little end point that takes in what you're doing. And I
think that was a
smart move on their part was to decouple how you and I interact with WordPress.
With
what actually gets saved to the database or how it gets back, because it's not Javascript, it gets translated to PHP, and then it gets saved to the database. And I think once they decoupled that, it did open up more opportunities for them, and then they'd slowly move away from things like the old school way of using what we're talking about with the full site editing of,
First
it was the pages with the blocks, but now it's like the footer and the header and those loops that like, because it's technically just a loop that you open up
WP
header and like how that gets you interact with it.
It used to be through the customize and was super limited, but now they can open it up a lot
more so that you can actually really build it out and have it be consistent. And so I think that it was more,
new
Greg: ways for them to figure out how to actually engage with. elements that used to exist, like customize button.
Yeah. If we, dive a little bit deeper into the full site editing and, what it actually is, like you said, it's, The progression of what the block builder is for page
building
made so that you can use that same experience to build out the entire website itself, including navigation headers,
footers,
Content, anything, any aspect of your site.
And traditionally, WordPress themes and still the majority of people that are building WordPress themes, or WordPress sites, are using A
theme that is not a block theme, but it has that customizer that we're all familiar with. When you install a theme and then you get that customizer option it loads, there's a bunch of things that you can customize about the header and the footer and other aspects.
So that's the traditional
way that, and, what most people are still doing today. And so the discussion today was about where block themes are and where the block editor is and whether or not it's feasible to actually choose a block theme
and
start using the block editor build out all of those things.
And my feeling is currently that while there is a lot that you can do, the experience is not yet there. to actually use a block theme and build out the site like that yet. And we're getting closer and block themes are, still fairly new. So
I would, I'm still sticking with, A highly customizable theme and still using that customizer to be able to do the headers and footers,
and then using the block builder still for the page content.
Phelan: Yeah. Yeah. Like a cadence theme is, I think like a good compromise between,
Cause I know we're both kind of proponents of
using cadence because it basically,
Greg: it
extends what WordPress core was doing already, rather than like putting this layer between You and the WordPress core, like a Elementor or or a divvy where it's, doing its own thing and then it translates it into the WordPress side,
Phelan: Rather versus a cadence where you're actually like taking what's already existing and maybe extending it so it it has couple new design features that didn't exist already.
I think that's a better way to go, and I think that's more what the future's gonna hold because the core of it is. They've made some pretty big improvements of recent note for people, especially non technical people. Having a couple of cut, like fully custom
WordPress websites that I'm working on maintaining. Like it's a pain to deal with, PHP sucks. A WordPress course sucks. It,
Greg: it's no fault on their own. It was just, again, 20 years old. No one really knew what web design, how you're supposed to set it up. And now you're stuck with this old antiquated way of doing things. And it's just.
Phelan: It's
Greg: not fun. It really isn't. I,
Yeah.
The,
other
thing I want to mention about block themes is the.
the
experience of, of, in the admin to build out that block theme and all of the, things, the headers and footers and stuff like that is a different, it's a newer admin style than people are used to,
because
the fact that there's so many that you can do.
you need to be able to do, in the block, theme to be able to build out all of those assets. They've really changed the the admin and the look, and it's a little bit, disconnected from, what people are used to in the admin. And I'm hoping that they actually, sooner than later tie in the admin experience in both sections so that it's of doesn't feel disconnected
like
it is right now.
So there is a different, there's a much different experience while. Building out your block based theme than the traditional themes right now. People will have to adjust and get used to that and figure out where everything is and learn how, that works and stuff like that.
And I think before people fully
transition into a block based theme,
it'll
be important to almost start using things small pieces so that they get used to. the, the new way that it's done or the new layout that, experience that you have in, that.
Phelan: Yeah, exactly. I think, yeah, I think that there'll be some growing pains I imagine,
Greg: with
Phelan: Moving how people's workflow is and how new websites are getting created or maintaining old websites. I think that there's going to be a
bit of a transition period, but like
Greg: Oh, it's going to be the case
Phelan: matter what.
I think that there I've heard Matt Mullenweg talk about he's very, He's quick to make these decisions he's not just gonna do it on a whim
Because and it's a third of the internet runs on WordPress, so he's not just going to make a breaking change they're gonna make sure that they'll test it, they'll move it out slowly, because,
Greg: he's basically dealing with that whole bell curve of accepting new technology and adoption you're,
Phelan: yeah.
Greg: WordPress is going to cover the whole gamut between people who are like highly experimental, want to try the latest and greatest thing to, I never want to look at it, I just want it to be up there and send me form submissions. Know, when people want to book me. He's dealing with the whole gamut of people.
Yeah.
for, And let me
say
for, new people, it may be worthwhile to just jump right into block themes because it will be the way of.
the future
All future themes but if you're, if you've been in WordPress for a long time and you're used to that experience that you get right now, that's what I mean about, dipping your toe in for these other things that you will be using
getting
with block based themes.
Don't, I wouldn't switch right now because the experience is quite a different in building out your, block theme. But new people just getting in,
um That don't know anything about the old, those people might have an easier time just grabbing a block based theme and just going for it because they don't have that old.
experience of knowing how, it currently works. They'll just jump in and be like, Oh, block base. This is what I do. I can build this. I can build that and just go for it. So
Phelan: yeah.
Greg: Yeah.
Phelan: Yeah, I would. Yeah, I would definitely say
Greg: something. Yeah.
If new just, jump into the new newer stuff. Don't torture yourself with some of the older ones. Unless you have to you're maintaining
Phelan: someone
else's website or something like that. I don't really see
much value.
I think also, we forgot to mention that this is all being precipitated by the core update and the new 2025 theme that's getting released. That's supposed to be built all around this.
Greg: And then I also, you mentioned that, Of leading off of our news segment that we had is that,
like
the advanced custom fields, very popular plugin
that is also owned by WP Engine,
that they're uh, WordPress might be eating into their lunch by having some features that will, basically enable it natively to do that.
So you won't have to install that extra plugin.
Yeah,
I wish I
remembered that was called because it wasn't called. We all think of it as custom post types. And they're not really referring to it as that. And probably that's because if you said custom post type to someone, they would not know what the hell you're talking about for the most part, right?
Where, so if this functionality is just going to be built in and natively in WordPress,
they're probably
I'll have to, I'll have to post what they were calling it. But I'm sure they're calling it something that will mean something
more
to the average user
that needs to create something,
as opposed to calling it that more custom programming language jargon of custom post type.
Phelan: Yeah.
Greg: I think it says, I think it's something content. But
it basically implies, being able to create,
custom content
within your site. That is handled separately from just going to
the page and creating
a page
or
going a post
and creating a blog
post.
But
I'll post that in the comments when I take a look later at what this is, called. But yes it's, something that's in the works. It's only currently if you actually download it from their repository on GitHub, and install it. So it's. Would you even call that alpha?
I
I don't know what you would call that,
Phelan: I I put it a beta generally alpha is usually you have to be, like, on an email
list to receive
the zip. If they're putting it on GitHub where it's accessible to people, I'd call that a
beta.
So
you'd at
Greg: least to know what GitHub is, know what to download,
Phelan: which, like, Yeah. It's, not quite Yeah, it's not quite we don't know if this is going to work or the other way I think of this is it's oh, what's it called?
Chrome waterfall
which is That's like alpha, like you, you, if you download that, you are expecting your Chrome to break
and break frequently because it's like most advanced stages versus like Chrome canary, which is it's stable, but it's got some experimental features.
Versus like chrome that most people download which is like getting your regular wordpress like Actually, have you ever been to that website?
Have you ever seen the chromium website?
You can see
Greg: every that's out there. It's a wild sorry. It just reminded me of that
Phelan: Yeah, I found it. It's like pure HTML. There's no CSS that's touching this website. And it's just just a raw, it looks like a time portal back to 1996.
And
it's just here's the latest Chrome, Chromium update. And there's like different versions that are just like super unstable that you can download and you know where they are. And it's
Greg: just so it's the people that are like working on the actual like engine of Chrome.
So yeah, you can see all like the different versions.
because I thought Chrome canary was really out there and then I saw this thing, I was like, wow, that's Chrome canary is like vanilla compared to what you
spicy versions
you can get that are like just break right away. Anyway, sorry. like digression there.
Yeah. No, one of the things I was going to say, because you mentioned Cadence and and Cadence not a block based theme. They have a highly customizable header and footer section and
settings to control the style, colors, fonts, buttons,
all
kind of stuff.
But
they have just released a header builder.
Which
You can use to replace experience in Cadence where you just go into the customizer and build out your header with, all of the settings that you have. They have, so there, while it's not considered a block based theme yet. This is potentially the start of what the experience could be for people who use cadence to actually have that full block based builder option to build out your header.
And it's quite sophisticated. There's, a lot you can do. But it's a lot more So the customizer allows you to do a certain number of things whereas the block builder will let you do anything So when you're building
it, there's a lot more things you do Have to do and consider while building it.
So the block based
theme
Editing experience will be more time consuming Because of the fact that you do have so much more control over how everything is built. So people should keep that.
in mind. In mind as well, if they're considering
going
with a block theme now versus the more current traditional themes.
Phelan: Yeah, And I think, I feel like there's going to be a lot
of, yeah, hybrid
transitions as well that are going to to be popping there as people adjust to how the news, because there's also going to be some,
pushback from theme developers and how, what their requirements are in order to put together themes.
Greg: And
I'm sure that they're, that community is
know, giving
feedback and letting them know what's working, what's not working, and what can be know, quality of life for not only uh, theme developers, but end users, like all kinds of different, again, like he's got a, they have a whole spectrum of users that they have to deal with
Mm hmm.
and
I'm sure that it, it's a not a,
Phelan: fun to uh, have to deal with the headache of that
Greg: Yeah, no, it won't be. And even I'm looking at All of the things you can do with some of these this block, header builder that they've released. And I'm like, man, that's a lot more
work.
Keep using the
customizer? For the most part, it. I can achieve almost any
layout that I really want.
And and,
the the new block, builder that they've released, there's just so much, there's so much customization you can do. And it's great. I love being able to. Having option to build the header in any way I want with any block with any content and that kind of thing, but it's man, that's going to be a lot more time consuming
to build it that way.
Phelan: Yeah, I think
that it's,
yeah, I suspect that it's going to be, yeah, right off the bat, it's going to be a lot more time consuming.
Greg: Yeah,
Phelan: my suspicion is they're probably going to have some more templating system that's going to come up with it so that you can import and export,
Templates of like page layouts and stuff.
That's my suspicion that
they're going to do more of that. Cause that fits more into the AI stuff that I know that it's going to be big for them, whether we like it or not, they're going to,
Greg: web
development, people are going to be doing that and I feel a way to curb those AI systems from doing something incredibly stupid is having like a template Hey, I have this layout and then, add a picture, add this picture on the side and whatever, this block of text there. And so it's a way of also speed up web development as well, or web designing.
Is
that, if you already have like specific layouts that you like using, that it's going to be easier to replicate that on different websites?
Yeah. I hadn't considered that, but it's quite possible that there will be a lot more people who build out custom headers and footers that are all block based that you could just select. Just like in your page experience where you're like, I'm looking for like a team bio layout, look through the patterns or templates and be like, Oh, I like that one.
And You just pick it and
Pulls
it in and into the page, and it's all set up. You just have to change the images and and
Team
information, right?
Exactly. I think that's sure a
lot of there will be a lot of options in the future for. Different header footer styles you can just look through the pattern library and be like, I like that one.
And then finish it off with, some additional styling. What I was referring to was more like building it out from scratch.
Yeah.
It has
become
It's You're like doing it from scratch, but you do it once and then you save it, then it's just okay, now we just export that and then import it into another website or
Yeah,
For sure.
And
I
Phelan: Yeah,
Yeah, but I
Greg: I just wanted to mention to people if you're worried about whether or not your theme is a block based theme or not, the WordPress repository when you're,
when
you're installing
a tab to just search through block base themes.
I think otherwise in the, gallery, I. know
block themes are
listed in there. I think they might only be listed in the section of block themes. Don't quote
me that,
but I that.
Phelan: that sounds
right to me I was looking through it, but it's, I'll admit, it's been a while since I've done any sort of deep dive on it, so I couldn't
Greg: a
Phelan: percent speak to it, but yeah, that does sound right to me.
Greg: Yeah.
Phelan: Cool. Okay. So we are out of time. And this has been a fun chat and I think next week it looks like Rena and Pip are talking about so building social media strategies around target personas. So that should be a fun one. And yeah, until then, my name is Phelan.
Greg: And I'm Greg. Thanks for joining us.
Phelan: Thanks. Bye for now.
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